Talk:Libyan civil war (2014–2020)/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

End?

I think it’s time to declare the war over. There has not been any fighting or an offensive for over two months and according to this, the GNA and LNA just declared a ceasefire: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-libya-security/libyas-tripoli-based-government-and-rival-parliament-take-steps-to-end-hostilities-idUSKBN25H1BG Thepharoah17 (talk) 21:14, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

@Thepharoah17: The NLA rejected the ceasefire the day you moved to page to declare the war over. This is why you wait until they actually declare the war as finished to declare the war as finished. Brobt (talk) 17:33, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

January 2021 should be a good time to change the article title to Libyan Civil War (2014–2020) - assuming that the three parallel components of the intra-Libyan three-track process (military, political, economic) continue to progress according to reliable sources. Boud (talk) 16:54, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Now that there is a "permanent ceasefire agreement in all areas of Libya" I think we should have the war end unless the ceasefire is broken. And also rename the article to Second Libyan civil war or just Libyan Civil War (2014–2020). Wowzers122 (talk) 21:42, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

I think we should wait a month before we do anything just incase the ceasefire is broken, like what happened in Armenia and Azerbaijan last week.-User:Garmin21 —Preceding undated comment added 00:49, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Is there any official consideration that it truly ended, or it is just a time-buying by both sides to halt the conflict? We have never seen fully the image and we don't know what's next. Do not declare ending it when there is no clear confirmation. ZaDoraemonzu (talk) 13:47, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 12 November 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved Thepharoah17 (talk) 00:39, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

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(non-admin closure)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Libyan Civil War (2014–present) → Libyan Civil War (2014–2020) – The war is clearly over. The last fighting was five months ago. They agreed on a ceasefire a month ago and have now agreed on elections. Thepharoah17 (talk) 00:04, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Support Ehoah88880 (talk) 16:45, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

• Comment: there are several problems. We have not cleared if this is fully implemented, or it is just a time-buying tactic by the Tobruk and Tripoli governments. Cannot make reckless move until we are clear of the real motion behind. ZaDoraemonzu (talk) 05:50, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

End of the War

On October 24, 2020, a Permanent Ceasefire Agreement was signed, ending the war, there is no more war, here are sources:

https://www.thedailystar.net/backpage/news/libyan-civil-war-two-warring-factions-sign-permanent-ceasefire-1983297

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-10-23/un-says-libya-rivals-sign-cease-fire-deal

Please update the end of the war date to October 24, 2020, it is no longer ongoing. WP:RS states the war is now over, I request editors to refrain from giving their personal views that it is not over, please follow WP:NOR and WP:RS. Even after the "official end of the war" some insurgency may remain like in every war (like the IRA continued its activities long after the The Troubles need officially in 1998, but the official war was over, and the official Second Lybian Civil War is over, it is official statements and Wp:RS that matters, not opinions of Wikipedia editors! 103.230.106.32 (talk) 19:35, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

~~ "WP:RS states the war is now over" - this is false, after carefully reading through both sources and neither mention the war being over at all, only the effort to maintain a permanent ceasefire which, as stated clearly in both sources, is held with doubt and skepticism by multiple factions - also this important note from the Daily Star article you provided:

But President Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey, which backs the Tripoli government with military support, questioned the viability of the ceasefire.

"Today's ceasefire agreement was actually not made at the highest level, it was at a lower level. Time will tell whether it will last," Erdogan said. "So it seems to me that it lacks credibility."

Another from the LA Times article you provided:

"Even as there has been a formal signing of a cease-fire, that does not at all mean that the armed groups on the ground will respect the terms of deal,” said Mohamed Eljarh, co-founder of Libya Outlook, a consultancy based in eastern Libya. “As always with Libya, the devil is in the details, and the implementation.”

I think we should wait a little longer (at least through January) to see if the ceasefire holds before jumping ahead like this. You seem very much in a hurry to have it declared over (you mention the war being over a total of seven times in your message, despite this not once being stated in the sources you provided), this is not a matter of personal opinion, no one else is trying to trample your view, only exercising caution when attempting to declare an official end to a long war that has not yet been declared over, despite the current "permanent" ceasefire. Temeku (talk) 02:02, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

A ceasefire on the ground is holding, but warring parties' troops are in their frontline positions as of today [1]. There's still "widespread public scepticism about permanent peace". Wakari07 (talk) 17:33, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

It is too soon to declare it over. This is pretty questionable at the first place. The user @Thepharoah17: has openly stated the war was over (as it was this user who sought moving the page despite my skepticism), but given that soldiers only hold ground and they still refuse to lay down their arms, this means it could return to the state of war anytime. We can't also ignore outside factors like Turkey, Israel, Saudi Arabia, France and Russia, who have their own designs for the country. I think the page should be reverted back to Libyan Civil War (2014–present), to understand whenever it could be completely implemented, at least for three months. ZaDoraemonzu (talk) 12:49, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

I would also like to note that a ceasefire between the GNA and LNA does not mean peace anyway, as dozens of indepedendent groups still operate in the country anyway (including Jihadist groups, foreign rebel factions, and tribal militias). Applodion (talk) 11:25, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

The War isn't over,yes there is a ceasefire,but that doesn't constitute the end of the war,both Russia and Turkey are arming their proxies in Libya,to prepare for another round of fighting.Alhanuty (talk) 16:29, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

How about we remove the date and move the page to "Second Libyan Civil War" and have 16 May 2014 – 23 October 2020 as the official ending and have 24 October – present as continued fighting, low-level conflict, or something along those lines. Wowzers122 (talk) 17:02, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

16 May 2014 – 23 October 2020 (Offical ending)
24 October – present (Continued fighting)

What if for example GNA attacks Sirte and Al Jufra Airbase and fighting resumes,what will be done,i think it is a wrong decision to say that the war has ended.Alhanuty (talk) 17:42, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Correct. Wait for some few months to see the outcome. We can't afford to be offside this time. ZaDoraemonzu (talk) 19:33, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 5 December 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Consensus to move to Second Libyan Civil War (non-admin closure) BegbertBiggs (talk) 22:09, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

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Libyan Civil War (2014–2020) → ? – An editor proposed to change the title and later the himself proponent closed the discussion and moved the page only with the support of a sockpuppet.

As noted in the discussion above, the procedure is being questioned and there are doubts about the end of the war. Therefore, I am starting a new requested move to better discuss the matter. --Fontaine347 (talk) 22:47, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Comment: I am in favor of renaming the page to "Second Libyan Civil War" according to sources [2] [3]. --Fontaine347 (talk) 01:00, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Support move: I support renaming the article to "Second Libyan Civil War". It gets 28.900 hits on google and is used by reliable sources (such as AIES, CSPPS, smallwarsjournal, and the Small Wars & Insurgencies journal). The title avoids the entire discussion and start or end dates which is of great benefit for an article which such confused fighting and so many factions as in Libya. Applodion (talk) 14:41, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Support: I agree it should be renamed "Second Libyan Civil War". However, there is one correction, do not declare it ended. As long as this second civil war is yet to see how it goes as well as widespread skepticism among Libyan public over the fragile peace talk, it is very hard to confirm to be over. ZaDoraemonzu (talk) 14:59, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Comment: Altough I agree that the name “Second Libyan Civil War” is Appropriate a ceasefire was signed ending the fighting in the civil war so I think we should keep it as ended Carthago814 (talk) 20:53, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't agree that the war was "ended". Signing a ceasefire wasn't mean to bring peace here. Everything is still in doubt. Do you look on various sources demonstrating public skepticism? I don't think so, and just one fire, everything will go to ruin again. Don't be offside here. ZaDoraemonzu (talk) 03:50, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Support: Agree that the war has not yet officially ended, I already added my reasons on a previous discussion here. Temeku (talk) 04:36, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Support renaming to Second Libyan Civil War: that name is much more popular and used to describe this conflict, just like with Second Liberian Civil War and Second Sudanese Civil War. I think the date isn’t a big problem, if the conflict ends up reigniting we could just edit it back. Plus last shots have been fired earlier this year, and a failure of the ceasefire as time passes means a separate civil war. Ridax2020 (talk) 15:31, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Change from “was” to “is an ongoing”

Th civil war may be at a ceasefire but it is not over. A ceasefire is a pause of hostilities not an end. A treaty would be the end to hostilities. And moving forward, the civil war will most definitely continue on based on the current conditions. The country is split in half right now and you can’t have a peaceful country with two warring factions splitting the country. Readers should be informed that there is a ceasefire in place but the war isn’t over until a treaty is signed ending the hostilities. (FireboltLegend (talk) 18:20, 16 December 2020 (UTC))

 Done. The source cited does not mention the end of the war, just says that a ceasefire was signed and there are peace talks. Declaring the end of the war without the source doing so is WP:SYNTHESIS.--Fontaine347 (talk) 15:31, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Commons photos of Libyan-Libyan dialogue

An ethically valid complaint at Talk:Libyan Political Dialogue Forum is that Libyan Political Dialogue Forum (and Libyan peace process, though not mentioned there) have characteristic photos from key UN facilitators, but the claim from most of the sources is that the main proposals and decisions are made by Libyans, with UN facilitators only minimally mediating.

If you are among the many Libyans participating in one of the LPDF events and if it's considered acceptable for you to publish a photo (screen snapshot) that you take and that can be considered representative of "Libyans deciding on their future in the LPDF/peace process", then consider publishing it at the Commons so that we can use it on at least one or two places in these articles. Make sure you explain that the photo will be free-licensed and be freely usable by whoever wishes to use it, within the CC-BY-SA conditions (if you choose the default licence). Boud (talk) 01:27, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

RfC: This war has been declared over by Wikipedia editors. Without a single reference saying so...

So some editors decided that this war has "ended" because there is a ceasefire. Not a single reference or media outlet what so ever has been provided which explicitly states that this war is over. Wikipedia editors (even with consensus) cannot end an entire war... Please share your opinions. Sam32421 (talk) 00:31, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

The war is over because a permanent ceasefire between the two sides was ratified on 23 October 2020, and an interim Unity government was formed on 10 March 2021. Along with that, nation wide elections are set for December 2021 and not a lot of violence has happened since the ceasefire. Wowzers122 (talk) 02:11, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

@Sam32421: Why is this any different then the Korean War which "ended" with an Armistice? --Steamboat2020 (talk) 05:13, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

@Steamboat2020: Read the title of the RfC? Says no references. There are thousands of journals, officials and most importantly references that say "the Korean war is over". In here, there is not a single reference. Sam32421 (talk) 18:27, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

@Sam32421: my point was that at some point after the fighting stops a war is over by default. I don't know if several months are sufficient but if they are then the refernces to the fighting having ended are also references to the end of the war!--Steamboat2020 (talk) 18:38, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Important comment by the nominator Both respondents are not responding to the RfC's topic. Which is about the no references that declare the war over, respondents have repeated their own arguments on why they believe the war is over, without a single reference explicitly saying so. Wikipedia is not built on arguments, please read the entire WP:OR article. Sam32421 (talk) 18:22, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

I have responded to the nominator's concerns-see above--Steamboat2020 (talk) 18:38, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

I came to the article just as a reader to get some information, and I do feel some astonishment at the apparent confidence (and it is unsourced confidence) that Wikipedia considers this civil war is "over". 78.149.46.96 (talk) 14:54, 2 June 2021 (UTC)